After years of exploring the world of safety, communication, and human performance, this is the interview I’ve always wanted to do. In this episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, we dive into the mind of a visionary thinker who passed in March 1982—someone whose ideas have shaped the way I see reality, systems, and even safety itself. What if the structures we trust are illusions? What happens when perception and protection collide? This conversation challenges everything we think we know—don’t miss it.

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