Sheldon Primus - Gives Us an Update

Today on The Jay Allen Show, we reach out to Sheldon Primus! Sheldon gives us an update about everything going on with OSHA and what to expect when January 2022 arrives.

Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show.

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The transcript is not perfect:

[00:00:03] spk_1: this show is brought to you by safety FM. Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the J ALLen show. I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. I cannot believe how quickly we are flying through this year. I know it seems like it to be a theme that we talk about quite often. But man, where has the good times gone so far in 2021? Never know what exactly is going on. Anyways, as we are getting closer to the end of the year, I have reached out to my good old friend, Brent Sutton to have him on the episode today for us to sit down and have a talk of what exactly is going on in his side of the world and everything that he's been doing as of late. So let's not take too long in regards of doing this and let's get this started right now with this conversation between Brett Sutton and myself here on the J Allen show show

[00:01:09] spk_0: is streaming

[00:01:10] spk_1: now on safety FM dot line. Of course you can. I got nothing going on here. I can't compete with all that. That wonderful that shape sound deadening in the background. It's just well, I cheat, I cheat a little bit. Have you been? It's been such a long time. I know, I know. At least I've improved from having egg cartons. I've got more proper acoustic phone. I have egg cartons. You just can't see it there. Just a you know, it has been a long time. J It's good to see you mate. Oh, it's fantastic to see you. So tell me tell me everything that's going on with you inside of your world. I mean how has Covid been treating you? I mean I'm thinking about this here for a moment. It's been what four four months, five months? I mean Bana probably. Yeah. Yeah because we're sort of moving in the summer. It must be nice. I don't even know what that means here one actually fact we're coming up to our 3rd Month on Lockdown, wow. So but in terms of numbers uh of a population of five million, We're having 160 cases a day. Um And that's serious for us. Uh huh. It's interesting that you say that um last week I had the actual privilege of actually being down in New Mexico and they were actually doing They were having about 77 a day is what is what they were doing and I mean it just kind of when you start thinking of the scheme of things of how you know the different sizes and things, it's just amazing to me on you know how you were but a few what, half a year ago, a year ago it was a few and then all of a sudden boom things would get closed down. Now you're telling saying lockdown for three months that's some rough times. Yeah it is and we're hoping to um um with you know once again it's the race between the delta variant and vaccination. Mhm. So Auckland is just got passed 90% on the first shot for the population. Which is a really good sign. Well it's gonna be interesting on how the world continues to turn. I don't know if you're keeping up on what's going on here in the U. S. Um mandates go into place january 4th That if you are a private employer and you have over 100 employees you have to have them either vaccinated or they have to be tested weekly. Right? We've sort of done halfway there already. So probably a reasonable chunk of our employment base has already been mandated by government orders. Um And there are exemptions by those exemptions can only be on actual medical grounds. Very interesting. We're here. They have they have exceptions of course medical grounds. And then faith based is the is the other side of what they've been doing and I'm sure we'll get more information as we go. Um But I'm just getting january. The fourth is going to be an interesting day here in the U. S. You know I could just see the Church of J. I would probably say the Church of Conklin, I was probably what I would go with. No no that's that's that's the temple. A matter of fact I don't think I should say I should see that that probably already does exist. Well if we roll back to very early podcast I think I did refer to Todd in those flowing robes. We're talking about safety robes. So we're getting close now here it's it's not So human rights is based on faith, religion, you know, sex, all those things. And the government mandate that the only exemption can be for medical. All right. It's gonna be some interesting times. So, tell me what you have going on because I I've seen it a few days ago, learning from everyday work, uh it seems to be populating everything you've got. So so tell us, tell us for those who are on knowing what you have going on and give us some explanations. Yeah. Look, I've really been puzzled uh two years ago when or 2.5 years ago when Todd challenged us about writing a book about learning teams were always puzzled about when is the best time to learn. And you know, there's no doubt that learning teams, you can get really good learning from, from events. Events are always going to be emotionally charged. And I always struggled with that notion that a lot of how we go about, say, accident investigations, there's never any learning for the worker, the learning is always focused on the organization and we wrote about the fact that a learning team um learning has to happen both from a workers perspective and from an organizational perspective and then we're sort of, we're having this conversation and we talked about it in the book, that surely the best way to learn is actually before things go wrong, how do we learn? And and I remember, you know, Todd talking that conversation about the presence of capacity, so how do we know when capacity is actually present? How do we know when it's used? So we sort of went on this journey the last sort of year and a half, sort of, you know, doing a bit of deep thinking and what's getting our job is not to fix anything, our job is to try and make things a bit more transparent from that from that point of view. And we did some experimenting and you may recall because you did that wonderful voice over for us for that, learning from everyday work video where we actually started to do some actual experimenting in the field. And it was that experimentation that then led us to actually want to release that as a white paper and and to look at learning from everyday work across a whole raft of um different perspectives and as if you're also seeing that people like erich Honecker Gle and steve shark, they're all beginning to publish now in this in this language of um you know, everyday learning this language of weak signals is becoming more mainstream. Mhm But we were really focused on, we have to move away from telling people the what and the why, and we need to start focusing on the how and the wind. So the purpose of the white paper is really about the how and the wind. So explain that to some explain that to me. I I always tell people if you can explain it to me as I was a four year old because I will probably break it down the best way possible. How in the wind, how do we get there? Yeah, so, so that I think it's really fascinating because because what we're saying is that um we don't create opportunities for workers to learn. So learning is happening um incidentally just in the work that people do, but learning has to be deliberate, so we need to create those opportunities. So we came up with four different opportunities. Um the first one which came from Jeff with was that concept of the four days, hold on real quick. Just live from safety differently dot com. Well let's make sure we plug him directly and he's become an international author for the first time and, and and he's in shock because as of last night the white paper was the number one best seller and safety in amazon in its third day of being released. Yeah, yeah, so Jeff's up there now he's joined the book club. We need to hold a cigar and whiskey night, a famous book club. So in the four days, once again it's about um dum different, difficult, dangerous and what it is we want workers to share with us when they encounter things that don't make sense to them? We want them to share with us when they encounter things that are different from what they would normally expect. We want them to share with us when they encounter things that are more difficult than it normally is. And we want them to share with us when stuff just doesn't feel right. But when we say sheer we don't mean report, We don't need fill in these 15 pages. No, it's about sharing and that and that sharing is about actually capturing the voice of the worker and shifting the power to the worker, not the organization. Because if you think about it so much of safety as a form of intervention, the workers asked do they do they line up and say, please may I may have that J. S. A. Please may I have that S. O. P. Please have no one ever. They're not asking for it. Okay, it's an intervention that's being imposed. So so what we thought about is that how can we do it? So that it's actually worker led and the organization supports and the organization supports simply by listening and being curious how's that for a dramatic content? Well, I mean, that that's definitely a shift that's that's a change. So how does the mind set change within an organization? Because let's just be realistic? We all fall into this whole scenario of, okay, we have to report some things out of the ordinary. This is what we're accustomed to. So how does that as well say paradigm shift a current side of an organization which starts pushing in that general direction? Sure. Well, I mean, how many organizations believe that that workers report everything? Well, I mean, here's the thing you start talking to the people that are very excited about Dr- 20 and for some reason there's this belief system that that's exactly what's occurring. But as you know, and I know that's not the case. No. And that and that appears every time you investigate, you identified the gap between workers, imagine and work is done. And in that gap, The four days existed. Mhm. But then they say I love where this is going. I really do. Yeah. Um and you know, when we talk to organizations, they say this makes sense, this makes perfect sense. But they asked the question j how because um and eric talks about the fact that that these things that happen every day a week signals and those weak signals become strong signals after it's gone wrong. So how do we start to see those weak signals And remembering there are a lot of noise. There are thousands of weak signals. And in the white paper, um after my interview with casting, So I love Caston Bush and his work around Heinrich, we brought the pyramid back and we brought the iceberg back into the into the white paper? Well, I mean, and you caught some flak about that the moment you posted it on social media kind of when you were giving some thought process behind it. And I love that, you know, you kind of took this very approach of, hey, this is where I'm getting a lot of my data points from. This is what I this is the, the information that I look for, people that were, you know, slinging the stuff is what we'll say on this version of the show, about what they were saying that and how they didn't agree with how you're reinventing the pyramid. Well, once again, the objective of that video was how context drives behavior. So if one was to be self reflective, the individuals that were slugging stuff, um probably struggled to see context. Therefore their behavior is being driven through the lack of context. No, I mean, and I always find it if I find it funny when you go out there and you put stuff out online, you personally, and I just want to make sure that I'm referencing this, you can go with the fact that you have and the research that you've done and that's kind of what your, your points are, you're saying, hey, this is what we're coming up with. And I thought it was interesting on this particular post, it was more long of just attacking you because of your trying to reinvent and I didn't feel that at any point that with anything you had posted on there, that that was the case. No, I simply saying isn't it interesting how you can have two different people of two totally different errors using two different types of language. Both saying the same thing. Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah, that's it. And it was purely an observation and and basically I love the fact that people are polarized and if one was to put it into a bell curve, you'll probably find the same thing um with uh vaccine unvaccinated people. Oh, I mean as you know, there is a great divide and a lot of things that we can talk about. I mean as you know today, as we speak, if we bring up behavior based safety and Hop, even though hop is going, we'll see a little bit more mainstream as of late, it's one of those things that there's still a great divide there. The vaccine, non vax, there's still a great divide there. I mean anytime you talk about anything, even if you go into politics, there's a great divide and people, if you say one thing you're right, according to some of you say one another thing you're wrong. According to some, it's a heavy mix of which where you want to stand by me and um you know, a friend of mine were having this big discussion on how the whole HOP thing comes about and behavior based safety and how sometimes you can even take a look at it and tie into politics. Look, I think it's great that people have convictions. I think it's great that people have strong views when I ask people, is that when you encounter information that is contrary to your belief. If you look at it through the eyes of others, learning can happen. And if you don't have that capacity looked at through the eyes of others, then you you've lost that capacity to learn and change. And I think that that's where a lot of the struggle still is. I think as as individuals, we still struggle of being able to have that open conversation. We struggle with you're not going to change what I'm thinking and I'm not going to change what you're thinking. So why even bother sitting at the table? Is that the right approach? Absolutely not. But I still think that we struggled quite a bit with it. Yeah. And look and the learning team, you know, we we coined the friends diversity of thought. We embrace diversity of thought. But what what I've always found fascinating is that because the learning team is all about looking at through the eyes of others, you will always get a percentage of people that will then come away with it with some learning and learning is learning whether you learn a little or whether you learn a lot is up to you. But if people don't have that capacity to reflect and we all do have the capacity. It's just that we actually have to apply it. Well, things have to support us to do that Then we will remain in this phase of no, well I think you know the 50s was good. The 60 was great. Things are going back to normal. No, there was no normal anymore. There was the new normal J Allen show do you have homeowner's insurance? For a good reason? 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That's the code radio at home title lock dot com. And don't forget to tell them the jailing sent you. Mhm. And we are back on the J ALLen show on safety FM. There's a every change. There's the ever changing always evolving because right now, if I said, hey, let's go back to how things were pre pandemic back to 2019, do you really want to go back to that world? Is that really the world of what we've learned over the last two years and change? Is it going to be really worth of? Hey, hopefully, you know, we can have things like they were in 2019. I don't really think that's the way. So when I copped flack and by that, I mean, I don't mind because I never take it personally. Um when I copped flack, um you know, I always ask the person what do they learn from it? Mhm. You know, I mean, don't get me wrong, you slay the sarcasm at the finest. Yeah, I mean, you slather it quite a bit. I mean, I always love it. Always love seeing the interaction. I might stay quiet, but I love seeing the interaction. Yeah, yeah. And I say to them, if you, if you, if you, so you feel so passionate, so strong, write a book. Mhm. Okay. And and and then you've earned that you've heard that thing because all we've been doing is um putting things into the public domain for people to think about, it's not about ownership. And I remember I wrote an article for, for Jeff it's safe differently about the fact that we're trying to do safely differently, but we're actually not deploying it differently. And do we risk, do we risk uh drift towards failure? Taking a pin from Sidney Dekker? Well, there were some people that took that literally, but I said to them, I put it in quotes, which which basically means I was trying to do the thing that why why shouldn't we be doing safety differently differently? Why are we deploying the same mechanisms of um if you want to get safety too right, you have to retrain all your people to think differently. Hang on. I thought training was a punishment until in safety one. So it's that way. Yeah. So sorry, is that there are punishment tool in safety too, Is it because is it because people don't know this stuff is that because we're blaming the person because they should have known better. So we're just, we're saying this thing about we have to look at it differently. And there was another component that a client who was in there, I think about the fifth year of the Journey of Hope and learning teams, they were hearing from the organization j that they were they were learning learning too much. We're learning too much. Oh, you have to give me a little bit more on that. Learning too much. Yes. In other words, every time they went out they would learn something. And my view was that all organizations have a limited capacity. You have limited resources. So for instance if I was to do a conventional investigation that would take me x number of days or x number of hours and I did it as a learning team and say that took me like two hours. If I compared those two things then the learning teams more effective. But the fact is I can only do so many of those because I have a finite resource. So I think what the organization was facing is that it still had all these great number of people that that was still constant and those people are going out every something went out, they learned something. And of course those learnings then have to um then lead to something else. It had to lead to some form of improvement around that. So I found it really interesting. Um so what we were exploring in the white paper is that yes, it is true, you can go at any time to talk to someone, listen to someone and you'll learn something. But what we wanted to focus on is how could we do targeted learning. So how how could we get workers to share with us all the things that they're facing, How can we start to identify those patterns or those clusters of information as weak signals And as those patterns and clusters form how can we make the organization curious about that And then actually do some targeted learning? Because to me that's the Holy Grail, the Holy Ground is being able to listen. If we if we go back to the iceberg, um Principal, the iceberg theory, organizations only see stuff above the water line, yet below the water line is a is this big mass and that big mess is all the weak signals that are happening. All the stuff that workers are doing every day. Organizations can't see the mass because there's there's too much of it. It's just it's just impossible. They can't have everyone everywhere. So I think was wouldn't it be great to look at the patterns that are forming and and then be able to make the organization more curious based on that. And then the organization by seeing the context of that, by seeing the work of narrative, they could then actually run a learning team. And the best thing about that as a whole lot of context has already been established. So when the learning team gets together, what we've found is there's a much richer and deeper understanding that occurs. Whereas sometimes a big chunk of a learning team at the very beginning is getting the context established. So that's what excites me because this allows organizations to target learning, we're at the moment, they're simply going out and saying, can I learn, can I learn? Can I learn? Yeah, but here, but here's my question to you when this organization says they're actually learning too much. Going back to the original portion that you were talking about. What is the conversation you have afterwards? I mean, wouldn't that be kind of part of the reason on why they want you there for the organization to learn and improve and move forward? Sure. I think that there could be two things. There is Does the organization feel that is compelled to act every time it learns? So go back to is it There's a bit of a hangover from safety, one that every investigation has to lead, two corrective actions. How can a worker learn from being the output of a corrective action? We can't No, they can't because workers don't get the context. It's no different. I say the same analogy, organizations that are saying, you know, we share our learnings. We share our learnings. No, they're not. Learnings, you are sharing an outcome. How do workers learn from the outcome, jay? If I give you the answer to a question, where's the learning opportunity? There's not. It's the question that drives everything. It's the question that makes me think. Yeah. So what we need to be sharing is the context? What we found, how we found it, why we found it, you know, all this? Because that's what generates the learning, not the physical outcome. You know? Well now I'm gonna turn this knob more slowly in the future. Okay, I've got no idea what learning is gonna come from that, but that's okay. That's, that's what that organization found. Well, I mean, I mean, it's interesting, but here's the thing, what I want to make sure that people know is that this paper, this white paper is still available. I mean, it's out there. You just recently put this out as you put this out back at the end of october um but here's, I mean, I don't know if you did, did you do this on purpose? You are aware that this is available as a free download on Kindle unlimited if you have the Kindle unlimited portion. Yeah, So if you go out there, it is there um I mean, I think it's fantastic. So are you building to to write a second book? Is this where we're going? Yes, remember I said to um well, I, I know the answer. I mean, I just want to make sure the people out there know the difference here was um, what what we are keen on doing is rather than writing a new book as such, were really keen on writing supplements that carry on the work and through all this experimenting that we've been doing and from all the great feedback we've been getting from organizations and particularly from workers, we felt compelled to bring this out as a white paper and by the way, it is just as painful as writing a book. Well, I mean, let's be realistic. Um, this thing's 67 pages long is what it has here on the Amazon side of the house. Uh, there are some safety books that are out there and I'm not throwing out anybody by name That sure. About three pages shy from a full safety book for them. They're saying, well, maybe maybe more diagrams and I'll get up. But look, I mean, yeah, look, it's like everything else. We want to get the body of work out into that public domain into that community to start them thinking. But yes, you are correct. There was the new book, we don't know when, but we're actively working on that where we're going to share a whole lot of stories and a whole lot of the value that came from this journey, both through the eyes of the worker and through the eyes of the organization. Well, and I mean, but here's the thing and let's talk about it and I am trying to be as nice and kind as possible. Um, but she would do notice that there are still a lot of people out there that are grabbing some of your stuff going down the hallway copying printing. And then, you know, changing some things up. And then saying this is the idea that I came up with and they're essentially almost copying exactly some of the stuff that you're putting out. And we'll even go as far as saying, they're almost very close to your neck of the woods. So Yeah. No and and and they do and and and and once again um uh that will never stop that will never stop. But it doesn't bother you. Uh No because what I find what makes me laugh, what makes me laugh the most is that if someone was to look at what those what those types of angels say over time they'll see that their language set is constantly changing and they're mirroring the language that we're using. I've noticed that I've noticed that and and sometimes like for instance our latest phrase is organizational amnesia in the new white paper, okay that's popping up in a few places. Don't you love setting trans isn't it fun? And then all of a sudden, you know, I mean at least if they gave you credit, I have no problem with it. You know if they say hey this is where we got this at least give source information. I mean this is where I got it. I have no problem saying it saying it but they don't do that. The thing that frustrates me the most is the people's use of the term learning team and when I say to them, are you referring to a learning team based on the original work of dr Todd Conklin or you're referring to something else? Some other partnership that's been made up. I get some really interesting locks and and I suppose the fact is there are always gonna be people that are going to do that because that that's their, that's their behavior because they're wanting actually wanting to control, their, wanting to dominate, right? So they're actually applying a safety one principle, they're wanting to be in control. So it's no different. We we actively chose to release this white paper at very little cost. Okay. And you actually can't do anything for free on amazon as such. Little or no cost to basically share it to get it out there to get those concepts, those principles out there in that way. Um, but it is released under a common copyright provisions. Okay. And it's not for commercial gain, that's the whole purpose of it because we want people to see these things because um we want the hot community, we want the learning teams community. In actual fact any community that does safety to grow because I think the power of the thing around everyday learning is it doesn't matter what system you're in, it doesn't matter. And I think it's very early on that we want to be agnostic. Right, Okay. Because to me learning is learning and the science or the foundation of Learning has been around for a long time. We don't need the science of safety when it comes to learning Well, I mean, and I think it's great as you're saying this because I remember having this conversation with you months and months and months ago went before the original book came out and you're talking about how this could fit into everywhere. It did not have to be just hop, it didn't have to be six sigma, it didn't even have to be safety, one quote unquote, but of course they really had to be slightly advanced um and records where some of this stuff would fit in but I'm glad that you stuck to those principles in regards of doing this. Yeah. And look at everything we do goes back to those core principles. So we do everything we do, we go back to and and are we are we achieving those five core principles around learning teams And and I and I also still have Todd's five principles around Hop and we always go back to the end and are we achieving those principles? Because because it's important that our work evolves over time, but it's also important that we have those underlying principles that carry through and those people that you talk about that are out there just doing what they're doing. Um They're not following any core principles, they're just trying to follow the popularity component. Mhm. I was gonna say the Almighty dollar, but you took you took the better approach. Well, I'm more kind look, they're not they're not doing it as a charity. Mhm. Can't they're not doing as a charity and and once again we have always been very clear about what we do for community, this is what we do for commercial They're two very, very different things. Yeah, I'll tell you, you've been one of the people that I have spoken to that you have really said, said the to where we want to gain and we want to grow the community and where the differential were. And there was never a a mixture of the two, where there was kind of blended lines where you didn't know where you stood on. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a registered charity potentially after this conversation, I I may seek some form of religious status as a church. There could be some tax advantages in it. You never, you never, you never know. But look, I mean, everyone's on a journey. Um and what we're seeing is that more and more people are joining, joining that journey. And we're doing some interesting work with, with Jeff safe differently recently, where a number of organizations are starting the hop journey Using the four days because they're wanting to demonstrate to leadership early. So we call it top down bottom up approach, they want to demonstrate to leadership early about the power of operational, learning about how to make blue line black line visible. So then what you're going to have to do is do a learning teams on how that actually has worked out with the organizations that incorporated that at the very beginning. I would love to hear what information you come up with, that's the book, that's the next book. Okay, so now we got the next book, so now we need just need to figure out timeline. So we're looking at 2022 Uh your petition 20 well, an extra fact. Well, because were cheated out of our last book tour because of a little inconvenience called Covid came along. Um we were hoping 2022, Yeah. Yeah. Well there's two things we're hoping for. One is to do a book tour with all our favorite people in north America. And then secondly, bring our favorite people down to Australia and new Zealand. No, that could be a hard trip. That could be fun. Yeah, so that's that's and you know, I you know, I still want to insert a bear comment right now, but I'll just I'll leave it between you and I'll just leave that between you and I know that all our all our favorite people will all be fully vaccinated. Yes, every country is shut off. Um and that's why. So, so look, we we would like to try and link those two things together. You can but look, no surprise when people read that new white paper, you'll you'll see the themes, you'll see the threads, you'll you'll see the stuff that we're doing and you're right j we probably don't have to write much more to turn it into a book, Right? And and that's what but that's the amazing part of the work that you've been doing. I mean in regards of when you put stuff out there is a lot of meat on that bone, it's not one of those things where you kind of go uh this is guiding me to something else. There is a lot of stuff that you can look at, at the concept that you're putting out in the stuff that you're discussing there is, and look, big thanks to Todd again for his contribution. I know it was painful and I said to him, there was a pod Todd and I'll take the pod and I'll re work your magic. Yeah, it's very, very familiar and how he does that. Yeah, but look a great process because um and once again, I was super excited to see that new book from uh you know, Tony Ron and jim on critical steps because once again, three people getting together to write a book isn't amazing, No. Yeah, I, I actually, well, I will say this right now, I guess I can say it now. I actually had one of the early editions of that book before it was actually released. I know it just recently got released, I've probably been sitting on it 7, 8 months and I didn't read through and and I was amazed at the time of exactly that the Partnership book and I was like, well, I've kind of seen some of this and I like where some of it's starting to go. Yeah, because it's and what we hear from people is that hearing different voices gives greater context to learnings from the book. Mhm. Um Last night there was a linkedin post from a wonderful person that was flying and they just spent $20 us to download um the book And they said it was the best $20 I've ever spent. Very good. Well at least they didn't get stuck where they couldn't do the download. So at least they were able to do that time. I think they were using because you know, a lot of the commercial flights don't have wifi um I just thought that was that wasn't it just wasn't that great. There's plenty of other reading they could do that would put them to sleep. That was that was what made it the best $20. You're funny. So if people want to find out more about what you have going on with, of course with Glennis and with the other branch and everything, where can they go to find out more information. Absolutely. I mean, there's two things, there's obviously via safety FM. There's the podcast series, the practice of learning teams and look and we've got some great pods coming up by the way, some really good content um uh particularly uh continuing a woman's series with with gladness as the host that is just proved so popular. So we've got some right people appearing on that into great topics coming through and of course on the learning teams community website is as well and and also our learning teams pub. So there you go. That's the episode between me and Brett Sutton. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did to find out more information about bread sudden you can always look on his social media platforms or actually go to his podcast. The practice of learning teams where him Brent Robinson and Glennis McCarthy all hang out and talk about what is going on inside of the world of learning teams. Anyways, I have been your safety manager and host jay Allen and I'll be back with you with another episode of jay Allen show before too long. Want more of the J ALLen show goes to safety FM dot com.

[00:40:00] spk_0: The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated. Open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced

[00:40:27] spk_1: stored in a retrieval system

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[00:40:39] spk_1: Allen