EP 690 - A Conversation with Sheldon Primus (Part 1)

Show Transcript

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This show is brought to you by Safety FM.

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Okay, well hello and welcome to another episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen.

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I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods as we are hanging out on this lovely Tuesday,

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January the 21st of 2025. So I have to tell you, I got a little doozy for you coming up today.

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I definitely think this is going to be a two-parter and let me explain why I say this.

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It's because when Sheldon Primus and I get to hang out together, it is just a talk fest.

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This is kind of how it goes. So what we're going to do is we're going to play episode one of two,

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as I got to hang out this weekend with Sheldon Primus and he tells me everything that's going on inside of his life

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as he's back now here in the U.S. Also, what he's seeing, whether you're going to see the standards

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that are going to be changing with OSHA and some of the stuff that he also believes that will have the impact

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with AI as part of our technology that's going forward inside of the world of safety.

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So if you're ready, sit back, relax, and let's go ahead and get it all started right now

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with this episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen with our special guest, Sheldon Primus here on Safety FM.

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Okay, so let's see. I don't even know where to start because I will tell you,

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we have not been in a room together in regards of recording something.

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It's been years. I mean, we talk, of course, but it's been years since we've sat down and done something proper.

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So just in case, Sheldon Primus here. Round of applause. So he's back from, am I allowed to say where you were?

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Oh, yeah. So he was down in Mexico for the last tidbit. It's been probably about, we're close to a year.

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We're like 10 months since a lot. Well, not counting last night, of course, it's been like 10 months since I've seen you in person.

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Yeah, that's been a while because honestly, I don't get to Orlando as much as I really need to.

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And just honestly, I love me some Jay. When I knew I was coming in here, I was thinking,

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well, maybe I should bring something and just to make sure that he's got everything.

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And for you listening, it's like if you went to your local news station and you're invited to do a story

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and you're like, hey, can I bring my webcam and do I need to bring my wireless mic to help you?

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I don't need to do anything here. You got it all.

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No, I mean, if you want to bring stuff, I don't mind. I always look at it like if somebody has like a preferred method on how to record stuff.

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I always look at it from the standpoint of it. Let's do it that way.

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Like, I'm really spoiled when it comes to certain stuff because I hate using anything outside of this microphone.

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But let's not get into those deep waters because that's going to be.

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You got a preferred mic. If you're put into an inferior mic that was from a news station, you'd be scoffing at it.

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I don't know if it's that serious. So, OK.

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It's good to see you, my friend.

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So it's great seeing you. But, you know, many, many years ago, we kind of did this thing where we met.

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I found you online. We talked a little bit. You were doing your safety consulting stuff, which you're still doing now, of course.

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Things have changed significantly since then. Additionally, you're still doing your show.

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You're still consulting. But it was interesting because I remember going to a event for the ASSP, might have been ASSE at the time.

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And you were doing a presentation related to OSHA under Trump.

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The future of OSHA. And I've had the underlining was the Donald Trump era, because I had to pull people in, you know.

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So it wasn't just the future of OSHA. I had to do the Donald Trump era. And that helped, you know, push them in into the little seminar.

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So when you and I and you got to hear me speak in there, I literally would just break down just what to expect with OSHA.

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And I'm doing it right now, actually, because now we have history of four previous years of Trump.

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So now we can go back to that and say, all right, so the president when he was four years ago did this.

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This is what we can expect. So, yeah, that was really kind of cool.

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Well, that's what I'm going to ask you, because I know that we're doing this on a Sunday and won't get released until Tuesday.

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But so tomorrow's the inauguration. So we don't know what the outcome is going to be.

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So we're future release, but back in when it's all said and done.

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Are you are your expectations in regards of the OSHA stuff to be similar to what it was before?

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There's a couple of facets that have changed that is going to make a little bit actually more dramatic.

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So the biggest thing that was the change was there's an overturning of this case called a Chevron deference.

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And basically what that Chevron deference was, was the regulators were just allowed to use their expertise in order to craft some of these rules.

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Right. So Chevron, that case turned out where the Supreme Court sided with the regulators and said, all right, you guys do the actual rulemaking.

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And now with that being overturned, what will happen is someone could very easily just say that I don't understand this kind of vague rule.

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And that's usually what everybody says about government. The rules are just so vague.

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So now you can literally say, I don't understand this vague rule.

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And with the Chevron deference, if the regulator EPA DOT OSHA comes back and says, well, our expertise tells us this is the way it should be.

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And now the actual court, because you could sue them and say, I don't believe that.

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So the court will make a decision and says, all right, well, this heat stress standard that isn't out yet.

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I don't think that we should make this heat stress standard apply at ninety five degrees.

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There's no real reason for that.

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And the judge will say, let's make it one hundred and ten degrees.

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You know, something ridiculous, right? Do that.

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And honestly, the court now can make the decision where the regulators used to.

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So what I'm expecting is that the regulators are going to just do what they have to the easy stuff.

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The things if you're going to be an oil and gas or if you're in construction or if you're in manufacturing in medical, you're going to see OSHA like usual.

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It's going to be just they're going to try to get their job done as quickly as they can.

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Put their heads down and don't make any waves.

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Just go ahead and go through work as if they're a regular person trying to get through the day.

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Your compliance officers are probably going to do that mode because that's what they did four years ago.

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Six years ago, eight years ago. Right.

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So they're going to go right back into the self-preservation mode and you're not going to see any new standards.

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You're not going to get your heat stress.

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You're not going to get anything unless there's a big, big like like if you have another for you guys listening, especially if you're overseas.

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Texas has a way of blowing stuff up.

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After a little while, Texas gets bored and one of their companies are going to just start blowing stuff up so you can do emergency management.

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So if one of those things happen, then OSHA might get into some process safety management rules or something like that.

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But barring anything ridiculous or pandemic or something, my don't even say that jokingly.

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Don't even want to start that. Right.

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But barring anything crazy, then you're probably going to have OSHA putting their head down.

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They're not going to get involved in too much compliance enforcement, but they'll do compliance assistance stuff.

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So if you're going to your company's close to getting voluntary protection program, those people who are so good that they just get OSHA to say, all right, we'll lay off for three years.

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Then we'll check you out.

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And then you do your thing at five years and get re certified.

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And you're just that good and safety. We can leave you out.

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This is the time to get VPP and all you people that service people who are VPP that just don't even think about regulation.

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They're so far behind above regulation that, you know, haha, we laugh in the face of regulation because we're better than that.

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Those people now are going to be your clients, your best clients.

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Those are the people that you're going to have to you're going to have to lean on during these time periods.

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Everybody who's just looking for OSHA compliance, they're not buying your service right now.

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So let me ask that. Let me ask that question.

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So do you look at this now more along the lines of things will change where people will be wanting just to do the bare minimum of opposed to going above and beyond?

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Because I mean, if your standards are this and you have a low bar for standards and I know that some people will say, well, that's bureaucracy.

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And you're just adding more crap to something that doesn't need more stuff to it.

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What will make the most line level of sense in regards to what's going on?

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Will they go above and beyond or will it just be like, OK, we can get bare.

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We can get away with the bare minimum. So let's do that.

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Yeah, it depends on the driver. So the organization will each have its own driver.

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Those companies, you already know their history.

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You guys been working for them listening.

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So, you know, if your company is just barely making it past OSHA compliance, those companies aren't going to do diddly squat for the next four years because they don't have to.

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But those of you that know that your company has been trying and you're just steps away from making a new change where you're now doing job safety analysis or you just decided to purchase a program to help you get your paperwork in line so that you could now start looking at your trends and data related to injury and illnesses.

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You guys now you're going to be a little bit different because what OSHA will look like to you is you'll be able to get resources from your local OSHA officer and your compliance officers because they're going to be in compliance assistant mode.

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So you now could get someone to show up at your safety days and start talking to your people about that.

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You're going to also be able to negotiate with them in those whenever you get OSHA fine for those of you that are not familiar with the US, you could talk to OSHA a little and you could do what's called an informal conference and you just kind of state your case OSHA listen to you and then they'll reduce your fine if they can.

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That's what you should be doing every single time.

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If you do get a fine, do not miss this. You want to do an informal conference because OSHA is incentivized and will be incentivized the next four years to settle up with you and possibly vacate citations.

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So that's what I'm looking for for the next four years is go ahead and flex your your your little wings and flex your muscles to OSHA and try to get a little bit extra for your organization because they're going to be willing to negotiate with you.

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So do you see similar to how what happened with the IRS under Biden where there was a bunch of new people that got added on? Do you see any new inspectors being added into OSHA under Trump?

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And I know that I'm asking you for crystal ball futuristic and I'm just going based on what you've seen because this is something that you've studied for a while.

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No, no, actually, there's no crystal ball here. It's a trend every every cycle you'll see it from Republican to Democrats since the 70s. So it's no crystal ball.

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It's actually what's expected. So during this time period, what will happen is you're going to see the regulation itself just be stagnant.

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So the expectation is business is going to take up where regulation lead lay us left off. So the people who have been crying over months and years that OSHA has been too strong and they're stifling business.

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So now at this point, the mindset is going to change and it's been every Republican administration back to 71 when OSHA became a thing. So the every amount of Republican administration, it goes compliance assistance and every Democratic administration does more compliance enforcement.

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So you're going to see at this point again, going back to the original question that you're going to get your OSHA agents honestly just trying to make sure they they do the minimum.

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Unfortunately, I say it that way, but the minimum is still saving lives is still making sure people are protected is staying within the current rules, then it's not going to to go a little bit beyond the current rules traditionally.

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So that's that's usually what you're going to see. You're going to see that compliance assistance enforcement though. Those of you that think you could get away with anything you can't because you have another person to think about litigation.

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That's my prediction litigation is going to go crazy, because now, and again, this is me crystal balling not history OSHA history. This part me spitballing.

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I think of it, if a person feels like no one is going to protect them at work, they get hurt, they're going to need to pay the bills in a short amount of time. So the best way to do that is to go away with someone who's a lawyer who's going to tell you, I'll work for free until we get our money.

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And they don't know it takes three, four or five years they see the commercial they think they're getting money like right now. So what will happen is litigation is going to go up, they're going to be incentivized to sue people. So now, the best way out of that as far as a employer is, well, let's go beyond OSHA compliance and now we can get we stop being sued.

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What will happen is OSHA now or at least people who think OSHA is too strong, they're hedging that the market is going to self correct, there's going to be so much litigation that is going to force the actual employer to take care of their worker, not an OSHA regulation.

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So we got to stop this flow of money that's going to the lawyer, and that's going to help the employee. So that's the bet that's being hedged right now and let's see we got four years to see it's going to go through we already know Trump Trump is going to be a lame duck president in the sense that he's not going to go for reelection.

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Therefore, he can do things differently. So that means if you wanted to he could actually be aggressive with worker protection. So we don't know it's it's it's dance to see where the administration is going to go.

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But historically, they're going to go into compliance assistance. And then this particular history with the past president with President Trump during this past administration is you're going to see acting positions, and that's another tricky thing.

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I remember years ago there was a conversation of the person that has the highest ranking inside of the organization will be held accountable for the safety of the organization. Do you see that still being in place as we move forward?

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No, that would be called the injury illness prevention program II PP. Never call it I to p two. For some reason, you know, really trusty touchy about that in California.

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I like I do. And I tried to because I want to say I'm going to help you with your I to be too. And they're like, we don't do that here. So what will happen is, or what could happen is you're looking for a combination between ocean DOJ, which they already have an agreement that they

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made several years ago. So it would be cases in certain conditions, and it has to be legal, you'll find it in the field operation manual and the act. But the legal framework, if you would, would end up being where you then would have a duty.

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And they call it the general duty clause, you have a duty to protect your worker in cases that OSHA themselves don't even have rules on it's the you know better rule, and everybody calls it the five a one which is in the act.

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So you know better rule is going to have to get expanded to, you know, better. And since you know better, we're going to make this a specific type of violation instead of a five a one, it's going to actually be an egregious violation. And then the terms of egregious now will have to expand.

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And that's an actual legal term. And if that happens, this jail time. So it's possible.

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So as you look at this, what impact is this going to have in some of the stuff that you do for work because remember you have the OSHA compliant courses stuff that you were doing for a period of time, you still do the safety consulting stuff as well.

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So how will this impact your business at least what is your expectation as we speak today.

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Yeah, and so just like every cycle, you have to, you know, Democrat to Republican, Republican to Democrat. So now we're in the cycle again I have to change my services. So now my services are going to be more instead of OSHA, mock OSHA audits.

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I'm going to get a reduced amount of those are really going to be like the process safety management oil and gas. I'll get a couple of probably medical facilities that want me to do that manufacturing. So I'm going to focus that service to those industries.

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But then, whatever shortcomings, us consultants would have with the missing clients that are OSHA compliance only, what we're going to end up having to do now is we're going to have to look for a driver. And generally that driver is going to be related to environmental, because environmental stills going to pack a punch, but it's not going to be the same as before.

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But then the other driver that we're going to actually see is worker satisfaction. If the workers are going to work for you, and they're going to want to work for you intrinsic value, meaning they love working for you because it makes them feel good about what they're doing.

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So that intrinsic motivation, if you could, as a safety consultant or someone like that, say my services can now make someone feel better about working for you. That equals they're working harder, they'll be engaged, less injuries and illness, but just so happens they're going to give you more production.

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So we're going to have to offer production based services. So generally what that looks like is we're going to end up looking for how can we shave time for some people's activity.

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How can we make sure that they're going to get better quality when they input their, their data for work. So we're going to end up doing training really is what will boil down to a lot of that business that's that we're missing that we won't get in compliance assistance, we're going to actually have to go towards

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value training and get that in there somehow and tie value training to a driver. You know, somebody has a license that they need to get renewed. Now your value training goes towards that license cycle. That's a driver that gets you some salary, there's some income.

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So looking at this now as you have clients come in and are taking a look around, would you encourage them to do the VPP? Absolutely. Yeah, because it's a win win for them. It's a win win for safety. It's a win win for you as a consultant.

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Because what will happen is anyone who's ready for voluntary protection program VPP, they're already past social compliance and all the compliance stuff. They're looking at ANSI guidances, they're looking at the ISO 45,001 and 45,003. They want to be able and for those of you that don't know it's international organization of standardization ISO.

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They have a guidance for safety management system 45,001 and then a guidance for how would you manage psychological safety on a business practical level is ISO 45,003.

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So now if you get trained yourself to be an implementer or someone who could be an auditor, that's going to be how you as a consultant or you as someone who's looking for a job, you get your ISO certification as an auditor and implementer or whatever you pivot.

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And focus on those companies that are going to be looking for that next step. They want to get ISO. They want to get VPP because they're also going to be people who can spend money for you. The people who are just thinking of OSHA compliance. Think of it.

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They're your local, you know, roofer. They're pretty much the local guy who doesn't really understand safety and health, but all of a sudden their business is enough that they're able to have a hundred workers. Those are the ones that are really going to be not giving you the money and the attention that you would need to survive during this next few years.

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And that's, it's a pivot. That's really what it boils down to. It's a pivot.

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So as you're looking over the whole aspect, is there something that us as just say average workers inside of an organization that we're not looking at that we should be looking at something out of the ordinary where it might be.

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Okay. Everybody's looking right, but take a look left here for just one brief moment in time.

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Are you going to ask me to give away my secrets?

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Of course. That's why you're here.

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He's probably out there, you know, he's going to record this. He's going to listen back to it beforehand and he's going to start buying stock.

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Of course. Of course.

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Yeah, absolutely. There's something that you should be thinking of that, you know, it's like when you're out in nature and you're always, you know, everybody's looking one way and you're thinking, oh, that's where the nature is.

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Like the nature is like laughing at everybody because it's behind them. The thing that you're looking for right now is you actually as an organization, even as individuals, I'm convinced that this is the generation of AI.

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And if you are implementing any kind of service, especially, and you can incorporate an AI component, do it.

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If you're offering a product and you could do an AI incorporation, do it. And I know it's not normal safety and health care.

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However, it's going to be an everything talk.

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AI right now is going to help us grow exponentially in our actual everything in our culture, in our careers, in our in our technology, in our education,

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because the information is coming back to us in a way that it already has years and years and years of data points to draw from.

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So now the conclusions can be more.

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They can be something you can build a product, the solution for.

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So I believe right now, the thing that's in the background in all of our minds is we know technology is going to be big, but we can't wrap our head around it because there's gas prices and food prices and everything else.

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It's wrapping our attention in the change of administration.

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After that stuff goes down, you need to look at what is technology doing?

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You know, all that stuff. I'm even thinking cryptocurrency, which I've you guys don't know.

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But I was one of these people who was buying bitcoins when Jay's laughing because he probably knows the story.

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I remember the I remember the going out story.

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I was literally buying Bitcoin when it was 50 bucks and I paid for movie tickets with a special service.

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I would get the Bitcoin. I would exchange the Bitcoin for like redeemable things.

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And I got movie tickets and dinner and all that stuff.

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And then I would replenish my bitcoins.

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And it was like 100 bucks. And I was like, man, I'm going to wait till it gets down to 50 and then I'll buy it in 200 bucks.

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I'll wait until it gets down to 100.

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It's always coming down. And you guys know the story.

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Now we're up there to whatever it is now.

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I can't look anymore because of the trauma.

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If you want to, I can tell you because we track it here all the time.

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Let me see. I can probably find the numbers for Friday.

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Hold on real quick.

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You guys know right now that this is my justification to get our special Dr.

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J to purchase some sort of therapy for me.

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So on Friday, so I'm giving you Friday numbers, Bitcoin climbed on the day up over 3% flirting right around 100,000 dollars a coin.

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You just confirmed I have paid for the most expensive pizza ever.

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For sure. So let me I'm not trying to do that to torture you.

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But it's interesting because I've had the conversation with my oldest daughter several times about your Bitcoin thing that you that you had told me before.

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But I look at some of the stuff that we're talking about here today and I recently well a few episodes ago I did an interview with Dr.

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Matt Law and he's been doing research with AI and he's trying to see how it's going to move forward and change the industry.

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But a big component that he spoke about quite a bit is you're only as good as the information that you put into it.

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Yes. And so of course a lot of people had questions on how would that work as we look at this.

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Do you believe and it has to be a belief question where it becomes extremely difficult that essentially I will replace your local safety person.

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No, I think it's got to be a little bit of both.

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And I think AI is going to be a value team member.

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So the thing that AI is going to be dependent on is our eyes and ears.

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So unless you start incorporating APIs, you know, the application programming interfaces with video footage and then the video live video and audio becomes everywhere.

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Now we've got an actual problem there because now it's starting to see the eyes and the ears.

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It's going to be missing the sights. Excuse me. It's going to be missing the smells.

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That's the senses we have. So it's until all five of our senses are going to be replaced by AI.

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They're not going to replace us. However, the integration is yes, you need to check the data set that's coming back.

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But I believe we're first generation and second, third, fourth generation of AI.

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Why do they need to check data sets? Because we're going to be giving in that input of, you know, you gave me the wrong data over here.

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Like when I first started with AI a couple of years ago, I asked it to tell me about OSHA and OSHA's jurisdiction.

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It came back with the OSHA books of maritime construction and it came back with general industry. No ag. So we didn't know agriculture was part of OSHA's jurisdiction.

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Two years ago, I put that data in and say you forgot 1928, the agriculture standard.

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That data correction is now in their system. Think of all of us doing that.

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So first generation AI, absolutely, we need to check this thing out. But next generation, generation after that, it's going to become easier and easier for that data to become where we can depend on it because we're putting in those changes.

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So I believe that that is going to whatever the earth has learned right now from, you know, the Big Bang theory, if you believe that to right now, I believe now that growth period is going to be exponential.

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From this point on, because of this new technology. So it's me on the bandwagon. Absolutely.

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So the next best thing to do is how can we construct what is going to be a global understanding of what is what is our norms around this?

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What can we do that is now an ethical thing that we could globally embrace?

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What can we say now is too far versus this is OK application. So I think now we need to finance the ethics statements, put that into some sort of global law.

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Is that going to look like a UN proposition that we all have to ratify? Probably. That's what I'm thinking.

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OK, so we're going to go ahead and cut it off right there. Now, remember to come back next week on Tuesday for the second part of what's going on with Sheldon Primus and him talking about the world of OSHA safety and what is going on inside of the world of AI.

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So there you go. Episode one, part two next week. Be on the lookout there. I have been your safety manager and host, Jay Allen. And until next time, be safe.

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The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company.

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Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.

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Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.