Sheldon Primus - Returns!

Today on The Jay Allen Show, Sheldon Primus -Returns! Sheldon drops by to drop knowledge about new OSHA standard and regulations. Of course Jay and Sheldon get into their normal banter where they discuss a little of everything.

Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!

The transcript is not perfect!

[00:00:03] spk_0: this show is brought to you by safety FM. Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the J ALLen show. I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. Yes, it always seems like it's been some time from one episode to another where we, you and I get to hang out and talk about what is going on in this lovely industry of ours known as safety. Well, as, you know, from time to time, we do jump onto conversations that are safety related and not safety related and all that kind of fun stuff. Well, don't get too confused today because this is actually a conversation related to safety really related. A lot of information about OSHA and this is probably one of my favorite individuals that I get to interact with and talk about things going on inside of the industry. So I'm not gonna waste too much time. And I'm gonna tell you that today, our conversation is with Sheldon primates. Of course. We talk about all of the changes that are going on inside of the world of OSHA, and he'll give you exactly what's going on for you to apply it inside of your organization. Now, this is kind of a weird one, because we did it as a as a double use. So, let me explain what I mean. Here. The first half of the interview is me talking to Shelton or interviewing Sheldon, or however, you want to put it. Me and Shelton interacting. But the second half of it ends up being Sheldon interviewing me for his podcast. I decided to leave the whole thing in for you to take a listen. Let me know what you think, and I hope you enjoy this episode as Sheldon private returns of the J Allen. Show safety FM. Dot com. So, I have to tell you, you know, that all these conversations are always nonsense between you and I. So there's really never a proper start because I always think that did. We should we started recording before. Are we recording now? I just never know. Anyways, for those who don't know, this is Sheldon Prime is coming back to the show. I have to tell you, I enjoy almost every single conversations, our conversation that we actually have, even when they're some of the bad ones, but most of the time they're always good. So, welcome back to the show. Fair enough, my friend. Fair enough. That is great. I mean, I never knew. I mean, it's like, I love having you on, but at some point people are gonna be like, wow, how often you're gonna have this guy on if I couldn't have you on all the time. Hey, we, that that just means we need to do that more. We need to actually collaborate more if that's happening. So that's what the people are wanting. So we gotta give the people what they want. Well that's the fun part is that we're always trying to give people what they want. But here's the thing, you're always going out there and doing some things and taking some deep dives into some stuff. And this is what part of the reason why I wanted to have you back on now that I don't want to have you on at all times. Especially love having you on on that other show that I do, you know that morning thing, Whatever, whatever it is. But here's the thing. So we're seeing a lot of things changing now with OSHA and Covid and all that kind of fun stuff. And I know that if I have a question about OSHA, you're the guy to go to. So what are you seeing? I mean, I mean, here's the thing. I, I run into this and I'm seeing some changes. I'm seeing some new standards. Of course, we have a new president in place and so on. We don't have to go down that rabbit hole, but we can, we can talk about some of these things that we're seeing different in standards. And of course, people are talking about bouncing forward, bouncing back, bouncing some direction. So what are you thinking about this whole thing? Yeah. Actually it is one that even for me as the compliance guy, you know, you're hosting a live OSHA compliance. So as I do when I do the live ones, but truly, I am stumped J and I'll tell you this because it is, there's two schools of thoughts right now going through the compliance side of safety because we all know the other side of safety where you go beyond compliance and you're gonna do, you know, well above the minimum. Uh OSHA to me, I tell my students all the time, it's like graduating high school with A. D. You know, you're gonna get out, get, you know, I graduated, I graduated now, but you know, you're not getting into Harvard. So that's OSHA compliance there. So this one though, it's pretty particular because OSHA actually gave a definition of contact and that definition now is pretty much a variation of what the C. D. C. Says. But in the phrasing they actually have the wording that says, they can adjust per the CDC, but they're looking at contact to be, you're exposed to somebody either at work because that's your only jurisdiction. But you're gonna be exposed to them closer to the CDC guidelines. And if they are asymptomatic or symptomatic in that case you are now in contact with this individual and I do that with air quotes for those, you don't see that. So um the contact portion of it it's going to be challenged because there's wording in there that says contact by time limit, there's an actual time limit uh function in there and I could just see some yahoo's going okay set the timer right here and let's go ahead and let's get in close contact within this time frame and just before he gets freak. So but so hold on so that's realistically it so there's a certain time frame that they're allowed to be in close proximity and then as long as there abiding by that guideline it's okay. Yes. So how do you prove that? That's why I'm thinking. This is one of the things that I have. Uh you know me and my my business partner in my regular day job as a safety consultant. You don't have a regular day job. You have like 1000 different jobs. What are you talking about? It's the caribbean and the man came on. How many college? I got 20 jobs month. So anyway, in the in the idea is I would now have to go ahead and in an informal conference represents somebody and then just say, how are we proving? Tell me how you're proving this. Uh then you're going to have to go to litigation. Because in this case I would tell my client that I would go a little bit further on this one. So there's lawyers right now that are trying to say in order to do a standard the way it is, you have to show the need and that's where you have your open comment period and all that stuff. Right? So we're getting the vaccine rolling out, You're seeing numbers going down. Therefore, if OSHA is now putting in a temporary standard to control something that is organically controlling itself through efforts, you know, global efforts. That means ocean now transcended into politics. And even though it's a political entity meaning OSHA has to go to the Office of Management and Budget and everything else and they have to go get all their different, um, all the things that you're looking for to make sure that they could keep advancing themselves. You'll find out in what's called a unified agenda. So when you're looking through the unified agenda in OSHA, it's pretty much a roadmap of what's coming up. So this one they actually just like their stuffing it in there when it's not supposed to be in there. And even though they're saying they're taking their time, which they are on the scientific side, they're actually really coming against the economy of truly regulation. That's just in name or regulation that is going to prevent someone from accessing a hazard. So I am anxious to see what's happening with the emergency temporary standard is coming. Whoa, whoa, whoa, So I'm gonna I'm at a total loss here. So going forward then when people have meetings there almost going to have to have time out time in and then how long do they have to be separated for? So how long is the time they can be together? How long is the time that they have to be separated before they can get back together? That's gonna probably be an interesting one because you know that everybody's gonna try to get good at all around it. Yeah, and that's only one way about it. And then that just will go towards how are we going to now control the hazard? Because we got exposure to the hazard. How do we control it? So, meaning same thing. I got to go into a permanent require confined space entry and there's gasses in here that could kill me. All right. How am I going to control the exposure? I'm going to wear beef it tested and everything else were my respirator. And then now I'm going to control this hazard. So, if you can't separate yourself For COVID-19 or SARS coronavirus, uh, so in that one, then you're going to end up having to do the additional control whatever you're going to use. So you could be respirators could be face mask could be whatever. But oh, she's saying not doing anything isn't an option. And the other thing they triggered is how do you contact trace employees and saying it's only coming from your fellow employees versus the home environment? Or, you know, some people just, they're not comfortable with wearing mask and never have been through the whole pandemic or whatever the reasons are, you know, so imagine that person is your co worker, you're in a vehicle with them going from your office to your job site every day. You may be great with a mask, but the concentration, if this person is symptomatic, they could have a viral load that is really big in this cab and now you're looking at even your mask could get blow through. It's a possibility. How do you trace that contact trace that? To say my exposure to this individual got covid not my wife's exposure at her workplace. This one is going to be fun, but I mean, I'm just trying to figure out how are they going to regulate it? And one of the fines going to look like that's going to be the big two questions are going to come out of this. Of course. Oh, they're, they're like both feet jumped into that tank on regulation and finds that that ship has already sailed. So what, so what's the fine, whatever. Do you have rough numbers right now? Yeah, I can look it up real quick. Um, see this is all real time. So jake the benefits. So if you guys are going to follow along with me, what you do and do not fall along with me. If you're driving, don't follow me. If you're driving, okay. Got it, Follow me. But if you're at home, simple thing, just go to OSHA dot Gov. And uh, so what you're really looking for is on the OSHA dot gov website. Of what page? On the home page, you're going to see a coronavirus, um, notification. Sometimes they do it as a button. Sometimes they do it as an actual uh, like a landing type page. What you're really looking for is the one with the fines. If you can't find it, you're going to look on the middle of the page, go to the right in the middle of the page and we'll say COVID-19 response summary. And then once you do that, click on enforcement data. So once you go through the enforcement data, you're going to really start looking at uh, inspections with citations that's awarding of it the heading. So I'm gonna give you guys a couple of them real quick. It looks like I'm just looking at penalties. They do name names, they tell you the companies, they tell you the state, but here's one. Get a citation. And if I could have shared my screen, I would. But uh we got a citation here for $9464. It looks like the violation is 1910 1 34 1910. 1 34 1910. 1 34. All respiratory protection. All right. Let me scroll down. The standards, the standards rolling numbers. I'm looking for one. That's record for getting Alright 19 oh 4 39. Okay. Here's the record keeping. One $10 $11,000 567. Uh now the record keeping $1 $15,000. Uh One that's mixed groups. Here's another record keeping solely recordkeeping, two citations, one company, 11,567. So I'm looking through these just kind of eyeball and and I know I'm doing it live, but let's keep it real. the real world very wrong thing, you know? I mean, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, we need to know in real time what's going on. So here is going to become the question because of course, we're always talking about what's going on inside of the world, but here's where this argument going to come about. So I know you and I have had discussions, I don't remember if they've been on air, off air, but I know we've discussed it where essentially, OSHA is the bare minimum standards of what to look forward to. So now you'll see some people coming out saying that now we are doing above and beyond. And is it really required? Why is it required? Now? Here's the thing with OSHA changing this dramatically with this particular portion. How are you going to go above and beyond? I mean, what would be considered above and beyond at this particular point? I mean, they really are doing something extremely different for their normal approach. Yeah. And that becomes personalized and it is different from their normal approach because of a change of of um, every time OSHA changes administrations from democrat to Republican and doesn't mean, you know what, what the actual president's name is. Doesn't matter. It's just a philosophy behind democrats. Republican OSHA was came about in 1971. The administration, the act is 1970 throughout that whole cycle. Every time there's a democrat, OSHA went one way. Every time there's a Republican, OSHA goes another way. So very simply is Republican administration would be more compliance assistance under OSHA. And then, uh, compliance enforcement for the Democratic side, uh, right or wrong. It doesn't really matter. It just is, it's just something. So when you're coming to survival with OSHA, the first thing you need to know is what, which one of the parties are in office. And now, you know, do I need to really beef up my, my regulation side or should I go ahead And we could, we could just maintain and hang in there and some people do that unfortunately. So I know at one point you were going around teaching a clash called OSHA under trump's administration. Are you going to be updating this for the one with biden currently? Mm hmm. Nice. Yeah. The one that I was doing for for some of the big associations was the future of OSHA that donald J trump eric And I named it that because it was really, you know, catchy. And uh, you know, at that time it was like 2016 just when we knew that the change of the administration wasn't gonna happen, so now, uh I would probably do it and I think I need to wait next year. Uh The only reason why is you need to see the new administration seems to be going slightly different from what the Obama administration did. If you're going to do any comparisons between biden and meaning he was there for the Obama administration, so therefore you're thinking he might do the exact same thing here. Uh They had in in the Obama administration, a different director, Dr Michaels. I don't remember him. Right. Uh Do you, you know, I got out of my head now. You gotta compliance guy. You're one of these guys pie in the sky culture people, you know, you high in the sky, wow, I've heard that a couple of times. Uh So in that era, what she had truly was Dr Michaels really believed in what's called behavioral economics. We all practice behavioral economics. Even if we don't know it, If I was going to ask you j you come over to where I live and you've never been invited. You have. I think you're going to house it and now you're house sitting and you're like, man, I'm hungry. So you talk to the significant other and unions? All right, Where are we going to eat? What are you going to do to find the best place to eat in this area? Uber eats. Yeah. And what are you looking for? I don't know. Every time I go anywhere. Regardless. Word is it's mexican food. So that's where I go with or the talk. So, I mean, the answer. I was trying to bait the witness and you know what the answer was. You just visited. The the answer is your ratings ratings. That's the first thing you're looking for, right? So what dr Michaels did is he created, uh, an idea behind that is called behavioral economics. Yes. But then he went a little bit further and he, he loosely termed it will not loosely, yeah, she said shaving And uh, so basically what will happen is you, if you're an employer, then you have a high number of violations or even a dollar figure that's really high. This now will trigger where you'll be in the OSHA newsletter. And you would actually be right on the OSHA website and your, you know, high, big bold, you know, jay allen inc just had this violation of and they'll splash the money on there. That was so that you would have competition between who would have a race to, uh, to a higher level of performance. So you can stay off of that list. And then also it would it would be also trying to blame and shame. People sounds fantastic. Absolutely. I don't think the new administration is going to go that far because the person they have now that is probably going to get it. He has to go through the nomination part is coming from cal OSHA. So it's going to be more stringent. Um, how OSHA is the most strict in our, in our union. You almost said our hood, you almost did our hood. I heard that west side. Now it's going to be interesting because you're spot on when it comes to that. I'll tell you, I used to interact quite a bit with some transportation organizations out of California and they had some of the strictest requirements on what they're looking for. So I guess right now because we're still still a little bit out of it, there's not really a way to compare it, but on the other things that you're seeing at the same time to are there any other weird oddities that are going on behind the scenes from what you've been able to pull up information wise outside of the Covid stuff. And by the way before, I know that you talked about behavior economics, I always think about Freakonomics. That book. It's so excellent. Um, if you haven't read it definitely, I would recommend picking it up. Yeah. Actually, I did not read that. I heard about it back then. I believe. What, is that a 90s book or I think it's a, it's an early to its early 2000 and there's like three or four different parts to it. Yeah, I've heard that one before. So it's the, if I was gonna pull out the crystal ball and dust it off and see what's coming up truly. Here's the things that are um I believe OSHA is now using What is happening with COVID-19 to be more of a going concern. Like if you're in a business and you know, your business going to last forever and ever they call that a going concern. Uh so now I believe they create, well, I know for sure they created a brand new position with someone who is a pandemic expert. So this isn't going away. It's just gonna be different iteration of how they're going to enforce this. So you're going to see a little ebb and flow of pandemic, It was not going to just say covid, it's going to be pandemic response. So OSHA is going to be on this, they're going to track it, they're going to be proactive. So that's a big change. They've never done that before. They've always been reactive. So this one looks like they're putting in place someone that could be proactive specifically for pandemic. So that's one of the things, the other thing that I'm really looking at right now, that is a big issue with OSHA has always been staffing. Their staffing is just abysmal. I mean, truly, you do the math and this is on their website. They tell you that if you do the math, truly, it's going to take one inspector, uh 80 pretty much about 80 years to to uh to visit all of the different sites that they would have to visit. So they don't have that kind of capability. They're hiring like mad. I mean, OSHA is hiring, you're not going to hire that many people without enforcement. So, again, that's the future of OSHA. They're going into compliance. Enforcement will probably be heavy The first year or two because our fatality numbers went up. The fatality numbers have been trending up for the last three years. The 2017 numbers went down from the 2016 numbers, which is the transition from Obama to Trump. So that transition went down slightly look good. But then three years in a row, we started trending up, We always are around 4th 40 800 to about 55 to maybe 50 200 people. And it's really sad when you're thinking about that, you know, because it's always that level. Why can't we ever break that in that I believe is a future of OSHA thing that I think they're trying to crack that with this administration just because of the people they put in place. That's the only reason why I say that you go to OSHA dot gov. Uh And on the one tab on the top left, you're going to see about OSHA. Uh, so you basically hover your mouse down there, let it drop. And then you want to make sure you hit that and you look at the organizational chart, you'll start seeing that they're putting people in place that are going to lead, they're going to have some enforcement. So you may actually see OSHA more because of the way they, they're positioning themselves. So as you see that in you reference it, well, you already are aware that they've been understaffed for a long period of time, so they're gonna beef up staffing. What do you think that's going to look like because Okay, yeah, enforcement enforcement enforcement, But are people going to have the knowledge base? I mean, because there's still a lot of training that needs to take place. I mean, I would say that if I know anybody that could probably go into code enforcing with OSHA would probably only be you that I can name off a list of tons of people that I know. Um, so what do you think about that and let me just add this little caveat, is that even something you would consider doing? Yeah. Actually, um, I am completely unemployable right now. I really like, uh, like being on my own, I don't know, getting back into the grind and having to be someplace that every day at the same time the same all business, he'll kill me. It really would like, I'm not built for that anymore. But uh, make your, make your side hustle become your main thing. That's really what he was trying to point out there and he's not bragging too much. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Thanks. Help me keep up my image brother, but now you lost questions. So the, so the enforcement side, do you think? How is that going to work in regards when they bring all these new people into train them? Because it's going to take a long period of time. I don't imagine. Unless it's going to be, we'll call it cowboy in regard to going out there and just saying, okay, this is your knowledge base that you already have. Go, go do what you think is correct within the compliance piece. No. They've got that worked out already. So there's a documents out there called, uh, there's emphasis programs is really what they call it. Uh, so there's a bunch of emphasis program that will take precedent. So they'll look for those um, what the emphasis is just for for everybody that's like after this program. What is this? What the emphasis is is surely OSHA says these items, these things, these chemicals, this industry, they have a higher hazard. Therefore we're going to look at these industries a little bit more and they break it up by regions. So some are national. Yes and some are regional. So to the, to the compliance officers, they actually will focus on those things first. But then after that, if there's other things that they need to focus on, there's a tear of how to do that. And they also have a document called the Field Operation Manual. So if you the numbers keep changing, they keep updating it. But if you type in Field Operations Manual in the OSHA website right now, I believe it's 1 60 for you will have the document they train newbies on. So here you go. Read this thing, go out there, go inspect and now its formalized in this systemized. The reason why they do that is you don't want you to go to, you know, um, Tosha Tennessee OSHA and they're going to have different rules and regulations on how to regulate someone. And then you would have in texas where there's federal OSHA, they're going to homogenize that stuff and harmonize it with the document of field operation manual. So it's, it's the people that's going to play their, uh, it's a plug and play. So essentially when they evolve the whole thing and it becomes cal OSHA for the whole country will be quite interesting to see. That's where I think we're going. That's the nutshell. I really think we're going there. And one of the things that cal OSHA has that no one will not, no one but that federal OSHA has been trying to do is something called an injury, illness prevention program and it's really formalizes safety and health to the point that it is codified. If you don't investigate an accident and now you can get cited for that. It's codified where you don't actually give resources to your safety department and starve at resources. You could get cited for that. You could get cited for not having at least one person who is in charge of your safety. Uh, so that I believe is the future of OSHA. So it is more compliant to make us, make us safer. That's really what it's going to boil down to because that's, that's the question. And it's interesting because when you say that one person is responsible for safety, that's something that the transportation business has been doing for quite some time where they have a state representative essentially for the company that oversees it. So it's interesting how the layout of really on how everything is going to go into one cycle. It is the other portion there is, it was actually in California where that originally started, at least on the transportation side. Go figure. Yeah, I figured well cal OSHA started that. Uh, it was another name before his injury illness prevention program. We kind of switched names along the way, but they were really into this, I believe in 70 Like 79 or something similar to that. They started this concept. People alive at that time I'm talking about, well, you know, back in the day, they used to actually write in and they're in their, uh, their bids. They would save a buffer for fatalities, wow. So let me, so let me ask, when did you start taking the dive into this? Because I don't think I've ever asked you that. When did you start really looking at a lot of the OSHA compliance side of stuff? Uh, when I switched over from ePA compliance, I actually started in with the E. P. A. Compliance first and I and the business or at least my mind. So I was just, let me stick with wastewater. Let me stick with the utility field with water and liquid utilities. What they call it? The water waste water, distribution, liquid utilities. Well, we'll leave it at that. Let's not talk about solid way, but they're solid way, which is really bad. Uh, so truly when I, I started to get on my business and I mean get onto the business, got out of working for somebody which was the state of the florida back then. So I quit my state job and I decided, all right, I am going to go ahead and go full time. And I had already started part time. But I said I'm ready to take that plunge and I couldn't sustain business J I was only given good waste order and there wasn't enough work. And I was like, well, I've always done safety. I'm qualified and safety. I have a safety designation. I'm not going to just stop my business because I can't get wastewater work. So I just started just diving into the same way I learned uh title 40 which is the Environmental Protection Agency's title. I was like, I I can do this for title 29 and start digging into Osha's title. And that's really how I did it. So as you're doing this now, because of all these changes and all this stuff going on, what do you are going to recommend people to start doing or you're going to send them to the ocean salad or would you say that? Probably give, give you a call, see whether you guys can come up with, I mean with all the changes taking place of course and you're on this, that's the fun part. Because most of the times I've talked to people are like, oh, there's a change. Uh, yeah. And I normally most of the time know that there's a change if I'm watching your, if I'm watching your live show that you do that way. I know, hey, this is what's going on. I love you watching the live show because you're, you're my best heckler. And you told me when you know you're sounds well, whatever nice on. I check my phone to see you. All right. What's missing? Because I take care of a brother. You want to make sure that I can actually do my performance without looking like a slob technical term. Yeah. So truly the way I keep up and here's a nice little practical way. I mean, everyone could do this one google and go ahead and google alert. OSHA compliance, google alert. OSHA or the specific thing you're looking for. So all happen is when you do that, as soon as the web scours any, soon as google scours the web for any reference of that phrase, uh, and it has to be in a what they call a boolean search meaning you do quotation marks with whatever you're looking for. Like if I wanted OSHA compliance help, I would do did a quotation marks around OSHA compliance help together. Uh, keep space like normal, but just put quotations around it. So what you did is called a boolean search and that means google only look for that phrase. So you don't want to get a search back of all the oceans, all the compliance, all the help anytime they mentioned those words. And once you do that, then you're always going to have some sort of notification that the web has a tickle through the web of OSHA phrases or whatever the phrase you're putting in there. I'd even do J allen in quote for you. J and I do not, everyone doesn't need to know when your name comes up on a country singer. Country singer comes up normally. It's true. Oh man, that song that you played. I'm still, you know, emotional every time I play that one song from that show. And uh, that's the uh man, it's blank stares and it has actually um, James skipper Hendrix on it. And it is still the top rated episode that we've had to date still uh, wow, everyone's with skipper. I like that man. She's a very nice guy like him. Okay so I have agreed to torture. So should I say this out loud because I think I am right now already. So I said that I would start and then I would let you and I will try to do my best to answer anything you got. I know you're gonna your best not to start interviewing me. I actually said okay I'm going to give j his interview without without interrupting or not getting them into into mine. Uh I actually was really, really my mind for for working with you kind of opened up a little bit and truly I am starting to to see a lot of the organizational things that you're doing behind the scenes. Yes. But even looking at some of the things safety FM and the vision that you have beyond that. What what changed? Because there's there's some action happening, what's what's going on? That's a very broad question. What do you mean? There's some action going on? I I probably need a little, have a little bit more specific, but I can understand what you mean. Well, think of it this way, you know, like when you you have a little infestation and it starts in the kitchen with some food and then all of a sudden you're in the bathroom and you're like, man, I'm killing this bug over here. Safety FM scientist. Then, like, like coming out of the internet and all of a sudden I'm like, hold on, there's a safety FM event going on right now and you know who's So what? It seems like it's a concerted effort to expand the brand? Uh That's that's a good question. That's a good question. It's not really expanding the brand. And I said that damn thing that I hate when people tell me that's a good question. Uh, I just said it, but that's the thing. It's not really about expanding the brand. I would say, probably expanding the messaging. I think what has ended up taking place is that we have gotten ahold of a group of misfits and I say that with love, um, and put kind of got us all together where we can do different things at different times. The whole thing that I said from the very beginning and that has not changed is that I want people to have different viewpoints than what I have because I think that's very important. I don't ever want to be one of the, like the large organizations that you can only view safety in this fashion or you can only view organizations in this fashion. I think that it should be a conversation across the board and I've said it, if you come onto the radio station and you're taking a listen and your behavior based safety, I want you to be able to go into hop. I want you to be able to go into these other fundamental courses and even some of the stuff that we do that's not even safety related per se. Um, we're just conversations where I want you to take a listen from a different point of view. I never want to be known as the MSNBC s of the world or the Fox News of the World. I mean size wise, that would be excellent. But I'm talking more along the lines of one thing, right? If I only listen to this because I go this way, I want it to be neutral where yeah, I can say one thing. Somebody else can come on and say something entirely different and they don't have to align with each other. I just want people to be able to come out and hang out. Um The other side of the whole thing, do we have a whole bunch of stuff going on at once? Yes. And that was, that was done by design? Um, I never wanted people to feel restricted of now that you're part of us, you can only do this. Um if you have an event going line and you want to say whatever you want to say and we have an event going on on this side of the planet, you have another event going on a different side of the planet. Hey, those things happen. I mean just because we do an event today does not mean that what some people might deem competitors are not doing an event on that same day. So I never have looked at it. I think that we do better when we join forces. Um, I mean, I think it's kind of interesting when we take a look around at some of the things that are going on right now. Yeah. Where I think four of us have started our own communities, quote unquote all at the same time, which I find kind of silly because I think that if we join forces and just put them all together, but everybody has to do their own thing that they think that's in their best interest. Yeah, Well, that's a very honest answer because truly in, in some ways, uh, it's, it's a challenge if you will to, to unite for, for the safety FM family, which is great. I love that idea. I love that mentality anytime you call them. Like, I mean, I mean we took the calendar, I mean, uh, so they don't know the thing that they kind of had me going and thank you for the honesty there. Uh, I was just thinking recently with the, uh, you know, the pipeline that was hacked and truly the gas in this area has gone completely ridiculous. There's a safety question here, hang with me. Uh, one of the things that they decided to do was to wave some of the drivers times so they can do over the road driving to deliver faster. Um, what's going to be our trickle down effect? The obvious obviously will be workers operating tired. You're one that's seen this industry on the, on the other side. What's the other things, the mechanisms that, that we may be missing as laid people in this field? Well, I mean, here's the thing, you have to look at a couple of different portions here. Everything that you get with it being food, home goods, anything that you can imagine that normally tangible has to come through some kind of delivery. So that's the first portion. So any time that you start having constraints inside of a pipeline on how you're going to get things, it changes everything. I mean, we can go back and talk about the last nine months worth of wood on how there's been exception to that and all those kind of fun stuff. But let's not get into that portion. But what takes place that you're going to see is now there's going to be different mandates on how they're doing their vehicle dogs, that's going to be the portion of where they will be able to do the exceptions. But just because I get an exception on my vehicle log does not mean I'm not tired anymore. It does not mean that I'm actually doing everything. That's correct. And let's be realistic the people that are out there that are doing these jobs that are very difficult jobs. They're going to do everything that they believe that they are doing to remain safe but also to get the work accomplished. Because if my vehicle because some of them have them inside of there my vehicle doesn't function after X. Amount of hours because they some of them have an actual trigger inside of them. I won't mention it. I won't mention any brand like starts with the letter Q. And to end with calm. But we'll just let you can figure out the rest. Um But I won't mention those because I don't want to start any trouble but they do have actually some d. Activators from the actual one end so you can deactivate the actual vehicle from it actually moving. So they're going to do everything possible to get that vehicle movie. Now there are some other logs which are now digital logs. They've been like that for a few years at least here in the US where they can say that they're on duty not driving. So they essentially say that they're working but they're not doing anything. So they might be unloading a truck but then they can put their off on a break and some of these devices are not super smart where you'll say I'm on a break but you can still move the vehicle even though you're not on a break. So now you're on a break. Right? And so then all of a sudden, well there's some of them that are triggered that after you're waiting for I think it's like 15 seconds and it depends on who's setting it up, it's considered on duty not driving so it doesn't account against your drive time. So if you get to a few stoplights throughout all of a sudden, you know you were driving but you were technically stopped. I mean you still should have been doing all the the checking the mirrors and all that kind of fun stuff so it's gonna change everything but you're on duty not driving according to how that system sees it. Now, some of the normal is normally about 90 seconds. And let's be realistic if you're in a major metropolitan area you're gonna have some long ass lights normally is the way that it actually worked. So so I think that you're where you're gonna see a lot of the issues going on and this is of course crystal ball question. Uh it becomes one of those things where the fatigue and that plays, that plays a big factor into it and then sitting behind that seat for a longer period of time. And then when we start getting into sleep or bursts inside of the inside of the larger vehicles, they have them or not. I mean there's so many different exceptions, just depending on what kind of vehicles you have, I'll tell you, I normally will stop any amazon driver that actually comes, comes to my house and I'll ask how many deliveries are doing for the day. And they normally kind of look at me like I'm crazy. The average answer ends up being close to 95. So that's 95 on just an Amazon prime vehicle. So I know that when it comes to these larger semi trucks, that's not going to be the numbers, but still, what is the mileage that they're going? And keep in mind that most of the truck drivers of their owner operators, they get paid by the mileage is how it works. Really. So incentivized to basically be on the clock longer or be on the road longer, correct? Um, do you think that this might have unintended consequences going to end up leading to if we could keep doing these variances on and off, on and off, why do we still need to have these variances and then eventually have some some other lobbying for the company to regulate their own workers hours. Is there anyway, of that even happening? We'll think about it this way. Why does automation become part of that conversation? Because that's where a lot of people are leaning to. Why do you think the Tesla did so? Well, when they started talking about that, they're doing a fully automated semi truck. Now, I will tell you, I don't even know if I'm allowed to talk about this, but I'll say it anyways because who is going to say anything? Um I've actually been in a virtual version of the Tesla semi truck. Um I was not allowed to take pictures, it was full headset, full VR. Um I got to do, I won't say where I was but I was at a lab um that actually supports the software and I was able to see what it actually looks like with the full automation on how it would work. Now here's gonna where it's gonna get interesting when you start talking about fully automated actual vehicles. Are we gonna start looking into conductors now? Because essentially that's essentially what you're gonna become because you're not really a driver and I'm talking full automation, I'm not talking autopilot. There's some confusion there between the two things. Autopilot is an assist to get you to their where full automation drives the whole thing by itself, they still want you to have some level of control inside of there, where they were, they were they would prefer for you to be behind the vehicle. But it's going to be interesting because if you're self regulating and all of a sudden now you have a fully blown autonomous vehicle, how is that going to work? What's regulating it for? Say the driver didn't fall asleep and I mean, and I'm not picking on it because I'm gonna tell you this is the backbone of America on actually getting good to us and I love what they do. They have one of the hardest jobs. I mean, think about it when you're driving for a long period of time, on how difficult that is. When you're trying to even for vacation purposes. Imagine doing that as for work purposes Day in and day out and sleeping in the vehicle. Yeah. What kind of ergonomic issues are you gonna see? I mean I mean that's the thing depending on where you're at. You might have to depending on your health. You have to actually get a. D. O. T. Medical card. I've seen them as low as three months and then as frequent as two years on regard to getting testing and you know size of your neck sleep. I mean they go through a whole cycle of testing that they have to go through to make sure that they are still qualify for you know a commercial driver's license wow. I guess if you're uninsured apply for one of those jobs and uh Well physical. Well I mean it's one of those things that when you start taking a look at it there's all charges associated to it. There's a charge for the C. D. L. You have to have that med card to be able to associate it. Now there are some um there's some groups that actually have their own version of A. D. O. T. Med card. I would say that there might be a fancy place in the Orlando area that has a mouse. But let's not talk about the mouth that actually has their own version of a. D. O. T. Card. Now the way that that card works is really slick. If you leave the actual place that has the mouse that car is no longer valid. So you have to actually go reapply for it. It's not a difficult thing to go through. But if your health isn't as good as it once was it could potentially become an issue. Yeah. Yeah that area is so incredible. I mean, truly the jurisdiction in that is ridiculous because of what the that the city that they have underneath the ears, maybe I should start calling it. The largest employer in florida. Maybe that would be the simpler way because this is the second largest is close to you. Um, which is always funny because they have the villages has their own tv station radio station newspaper and so on and the highest rate of stds and all of the U. S. According to years ago, I don't know if it's still the case. I had a student and she pulled open the window will and curtains for me to uh, explain what's happening over there and like who lied? Uh wow, another question is this kid, it's a great retirement community. I mean, I'm not going to say otherwise. I would love to be there, but I'm not old enough. Uh don't worry, Your time will come if you're lucky enough, right? Like all of us and we're lucky enough our time will come and be able to be those seniors and enjoy that. AARP. Now I'll be in Mexico by then and that new Mexico, I'm just talking regular Mexico. No. Yeah. So many people go in there. It's ridiculous. It's a lot. I want to go. One of the things that I've, I've got two quick questions, just kind of squeeze in here. Um One is on the management side because you're one of these people that are the organizational manager um guru because of your actual doctorate. Uh one You're thinking about dysfunction in an organization that is leading to high safety issues and now you're like the person that maybe the insurance company said we are going to kick these guys off insurance if they don't get their act together, What do you think you would say to the leadership or management that that will uh steer them towards safety culture? What what are some of the management thing? We know some of the things you have to do. A safety officers such as the job safety analysis and doing more hazard assessments and auditing. We know the technical things to turn to ship. What about the things you have to talk to? You know, the people that are in a big, big room, the people that are the higher ups, what do you do to turn them? Well, a lot of people are not gonna like this answer because it doesn't really align with some of the things on how people see the world of safety. The first thing that I would tell them is get rid of your safety culture and that might shock some. And let me explain why I say that because I think that if you have a safety culture, it actually causes a small issue inside the organization because when you're starting to treat something as a separate entity, it's never going to be adapted. And through the whole organization, if you start looking at it as part of your culture and you start influencing these things into the culture of your organization, I think it actually becomes something entirely different. Well, you start looking at change management is really what you start looking at is how instead of having a safety person and nothing against safety person. Entitling, I think some of the credentialing and requirements can be slightly different. What we're talking about change management, where you start looking into those different positions inside of the organization of saying, okay, this is a champion for change. And if you really want to look at how difficult it is to bring a culture up. There's a lot of paperwork on you on the UNICEF website and I'll tell you some, someone that gave me a lot of that information was Andrew baker had a conversation with her and she referenced that. And if you look at how you have to do changes within a culture, you have to almost apply those exact same things inside of the organizations. So going a little bit deeper into your original question about how do you tell that to management? It's telling them exactly that get rid of your safety culture, just to see that initial shock on their face and explain why. But the other portion of that, you have to keep in mind too. You have to meet people where they're at, if I try to go in there and they have nothing and I say that they're gonna be cool with it. So you have to almost tailor it a little bit now here's the great part in bad part. Also at the same time, normally when I'm talking to upper management they called me, I didn't call them. So they really want my honest opinion. Now they might sit there and argue about some of their ideas, but at the end of the day they called me, I didn't call them, so you called me for my honest opinion. You didn't call me for me to go, let me agree with everybody else who's sitting inside of this room with you. It becomes interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's tough conversation but truly they should appreciate that because I do that all the time as a consultant. You you called me what do we got to do? I mean and I know it sounds mean at times but I get paid the same thing if you do it or you don't and I know that sounds terrible. I really want to see the change was inside of the organization. That's why I'm there. But also at the same time to the management or the C suite has to be open to the idea. I think one of the most difficult jobs inside of most organizations is middle management. It's the people from the C suite give the information to middle management. Middle management has to dispense it. I mean, it's it's a very difficult task because you can't make both sides happy. Not at least not all the time. Mhm, wow, dropping some knowledge there. But I mean just like, boom, I should put that on my board. Right. I gotta use that board born Uh, last question for me and those you don't know what I'm talking about. The borders. I got this nice little road caster board that I have that I could do sounds such as my laughter sound or something like that if I really needed to, Oh God, kid laughter. Right. Uh, what jay allen excites you right now. What is the thing that if you were meeting up with a high school buddy in nice covid friendly environment and they're like, hey man, what are you up to now? What's going on? What's going to be like coming out your mouth? What are you saying? Well, it's probably not going to be what you expect. I have learned over the last few weeks. The power of turning off my devices. That was good because I'm like, oh no, audio problems. You know, I, I saw that it cut out. but the power of turning off my devices and being able to spend time with my family and I know some people are like, that's a canned answer. No, realistically I have been able to spend time with my preteen and with my toddler and my wife and been able to do some things that we haven't been able to do before because we're always okay, work busy. Now, get back to the flow of things, let's have the tv on and so on. No, it's been time of just spending time with them and it's not being stimulated by a new a new devices, not being stimulated by something else. It's really being able to have that one on one interaction or that family interaction with them. And it's it's been interesting because it's not something that I I mean, and I've told you this before, I was previously married, not something that I enjoyed, I was always on the run, run, run, run, run, run, run run. And now this has become something entirely different than I. And I never thought that I would actually enjoy it. I always thought it would be something, whatever it is, what it is, but that's something that I really seem to enjoy it. I also just think that it's probably because it has a lot to do that I'm getting old, so that's probably another factor into it. Yeah, that's always a factor. Unfortunately, you're adapting and changing on along the way as well. So my friend, thank you so much for for extending your interview where you can add me to interview you and you let me interview. That's even more rare. I'm trying to make the attempt to do so I actually appreciate you actually taking the time to do this because I know that sometimes I can go long winded but I appreciate you giving all the information that you did and realistically people really need to reach out to you if they're running into any issues when it comes related to OSHA, you're always on top of that game of exactly what's going on. I normally hear the changes that are going on before anything else, anybody else tells me anything. I normally hear him from your show so I appreciate everything that you're doing for the people out there. Excellent, well thank you. Thank you so much. I really um it's a passion and I want to really keep up on it. So what are you gonna plug brother? Tell me what you got because I always put plugs on my show. I don't know if you do on your side, what's going on here? Here's my plug. Go to the safety consultant dot tv and sign up to learn how to become a consultant. There you go. Alright night, Nice. And then while you're there open a tab and then just put in safety FM plus dot com and check that out. And then it has been awesome, awesome, awesome. I love, I love those uh those around the pod world. But thank you man. Thank you so much. Thank you Safety FM. Changing safety cultures, one broadcast and one podcast at a time. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host in its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited in dated open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, jay Allen.